Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2023 July 17
17 July 2023[mali mi di yibu sheena n-niŋ]
MathematicsAndStatistics[mali mi di yibu sheena n-niŋ]
Incorrect deletion under G8, under the exception of plausible redirects that can be changed to valid targets of two redirects: MathematicsAndStatistics and Mathematics and Statistics. Propose to undelete these two pages. Note the discussion with the RfD closer where the redirects not being deleted if the dab page was deleted at AfD was specified as the action that should be taken, due to the lack of consensus between keep and delete at the RfD. Deleting admin declined to undelete, request at WP:UNDELETE was let to archive, but no actual reason has yet been given as to why these redirects shouldn't be undeleted? J947 † edits 23:38, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Restore, probably start new RfD In May, these redirects were re-targeted to a brand new page created specifically for the retargeting which was then sent to AfD and deleted, and then were G8'd as redirects to a deleted page. The closer noted no consensus for keeping or deleting after the retarget, even though specific mention of G8 was made in the discussion. These were long-standing redirects before the re-target and the re-targeting was done for a brand new page, so I think restoring to where things were in say April and then starting a new discussion makes the most sense, even though I'm fine keeping them deleted. SportingFlyer T·C 23:58, 17 July 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse - MathematicsAndStatistics was retargeted to Mathematics and Statistics in June. Then Mathematics and Statistics was deleted as per AFD, so that deleting MathematicsAndStatistics was a valid G8 (as well as being a silly search phrase). I see no reason to undelete anything. Maybe something hasn't been explained, or maybe somebody is goofing around. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:07, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse - who is going to be searching for MathematicsAndStatistics? Anyone who starts typing either Mathematics or Statistics is going to be offered a range of relevant pages. Secondly, as discussed at the recent AfD, Statistics is clearly a separate field of study from Mathematics albeit obviously related. So what would the target be? JMWt (talk) 07:50, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not to relitigate the discussion, but these redirects are special in that they have history from February 2001. I'm not a great fan of the broad range of {{R with old history}}s, but generally any history from at least 2002 or beforehand is kept automatically and within that cohort Feb 2001 is in the top 1% at least, I imagine. J947 † edits 08:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand the relevance of your reply. Are you telling me we need to keep a redirect because it is old? JMWt (talk) 08:57, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes (K4). Doesn't matter much, agreed. But I'm surprised an extremely straightforward case (follow the consensus of the RfD) has been met with so much resistance. J947 † edits 09:02, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- User:J947 - Yes, we are straightforwardly following the consensus of the RFD, which was to redirect it to Mathematics And Statistics. So we should straightforwardly also follow the consensus of the AFD, and the policy that redirects to deleted pages are deleted. Yes, all straightforward. Restoring it is not straightforward. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:45, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Well because the target has been deleted as non-notable and it is just a redirect. There is no consensus or rational for a redirect anywhere. So what's the point in keeping it? JMWt (talk) 09:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- The target was only created as a result of that RfD and had been around only a couple weeks before being deleted. We've deleted a 20-year-old redirect because someone thought creating a page specifically for the redirect was a good idea, and it quickly became apparent it wasn't. I'm not sure I'm in favour of keeping the redirect around, but I don't see any harm in undoing things to the way they were in April, with whatever this was targeted at, and then having another RfD, considering there was no consensus to keep or delete the redirect (in part because the new now deleted page was created half-way through the discussion.)
- Of course, we could also just agree here that the redirect is pointless, but it's an odd situation. SportingFlyer T·C 11:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- its bizarre to me that you appear prepared to agree that it is pointless and that there is no sensible target but seem to be swayed by the age of the redirect. JMWt (talk) 11:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- There would have been a "sensible" target for 20 years. I don't know what that target is myself, but it's enough to discuss again. SportingFlyer T·C 16:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I also don't feel like anyone is engaging with how odd this situation was? SportingFlyer T·C 10:36, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- There would have been a "sensible" target for 20 years. I don't know what that target is myself, but it's enough to discuss again. SportingFlyer T·C 16:09, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- its bizarre to me that you appear prepared to agree that it is pointless and that there is no sensible target but seem to be swayed by the age of the redirect. JMWt (talk) 11:19, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Yes (K4). Doesn't matter much, agreed. But I'm surprised an extremely straightforward case (follow the consensus of the RfD) has been met with so much resistance. J947 † edits 09:02, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- I don't understand the relevance of your reply. Are you telling me we need to keep a redirect because it is old? JMWt (talk) 08:57, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Not to relitigate the discussion, but these redirects are special in that they have history from February 2001. I'm not a great fan of the broad range of {{R with old history}}s, but generally any history from at least 2002 or beforehand is kept automatically and within that cohort Feb 2001 is in the top 1% at least, I imagine. J947 † edits 08:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse. No failure to follow deletion process has been identified. Neither MathematicsAndStatistics nor Mathematics and Statistics are plausible search terms. Stifle (talk) 09:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse per Stifle.—Alalch E. 22:36, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse. Well participated AfD that was correctly closed. —-SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:50, 18 July 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse this was only kept in the RfD because of the existence of the Mathematics and statistics disambiguation page (note: I was one of the people who supported that outcome). Now that disambiguation page has been deleted it doesn't make sense to keep the redirect any more. It is fine to delete a redirect under G8 which has survived an RfD, see the CSD policy. Hut 8.5 11:44, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
this was only kept in the RfD because of the existence of the Mathematics and statistics disambiguation page
– that's factually incorrect. Even if the disambiguation page didn't exist, there was no consensus to delete. J947 † edits 22:09, 19 July 2023 (UTC)- Quite a few RfD participants (including me) supported keeping purely because the disambiguation page existed and whether it should exist was beyond the scope of the discussion. That rationale is clearly no longer valid, and I strongly suspect several of the Retarget comments would have supported deletion if the disambiguation page had not existed. I certainly would have. Hut 8.5 20:08, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Restore both, as Mathematical statistics is a reasonable target, and as others have stated above, MathematicsAndStatistics has history from the era of WP:CAMEL, so it would be preferable to restore and target them somewhere rather than recreating them. RedPanda25 21:05, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
- Mathematical statistics would be the least unreasonable target of these redirects which are not reasonable search terms, given that such redirects exists, and as such, maybe it cold be called a "reasonable target", but that doesn't solve the prior problem that the redirects should not exist, because, irrespective of exact target, they are, as said, not plausible search terms. Indeed, some redirects which are not plausible search terms but have other reasons to exist, have reasonable targets. But these redirects do not have a reason to exist. It appears that you allude to a historical reason with respect to MathematicsAndStatistics, so as to preserve an instance of camel style, but that is not something that needs to be preserved in this manner.—Alalch E. 13:46, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- endorse and allow recreation Policy and guidelines were followed. It's not clear to me that the redirect will see any use (certainly not enough to justify all the editor time used here), but per WP:CHEAP I think having a redirect here is reasonable if not needed. Hobit (talk) 21:30, 20 July 2023 (UTC)
- Restore. As the RfD closer, I'm suprised I was never informed of this DRV, but WP:CSD § Pages that have survived deletion discussions states,
These criteria may only be used in such cases when no controversy exists; in the event of a dispute, start a new deletion discussion.
The messy RfD and this DRV certainly constitute controversy. CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (I will not see your reply if you don't mention me) 03:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC) - Restore 1) as ineligible for CSD per the above, and 2) per our 'reasonable editor' standard: If a speedy is reasonably contested by multiple editors in good standing, our default expectation is to restore and send to the appropriate XfD process. Jclemens (talk) 03:24, 24 July 2023 (UTC)
- IAR-ish endorse. My eyes are glazing over with the word salad of CSD categories, exceptions, etc being invoked above. So I am ignoring it in IAR fashion and merely asking - is this a plausibly useful redirect to have? I agree with people above that it is not. I paused a bit at the rationale (I hope I have this right) that it's an old CamelCase redirect and we shouldn't delete those in case there are external links from 20+ years ago that use it that would break - but I've done a cursory google search for any such links and failed to find any. I also understand and accept Jclemens' and others' 'multiple reasonable editors are objecting so let's discuss rather than speedy' argument, so I wouldn't object to a ```Discuss at RFD``` close, but I'd love for that to be in response to objections that go beyond process. Personally, happy to endorse and just move on. Martinp (talk) 11:44, 25 July 2023 (UTC)
- Endorse per why would we advocate wasting more time on this? If I'm following this correctly, the RfD ended with no consensus for keeping or deleting these redirects in isolation, but during the RfD a setindex/DAB was created for them to point to and there was consensus to retarget them there. Before the redirect target was made there was the nom, a delete !vote, a weak delete !vote that also supported keeping and setindexifying, and a handful of comments supporting retargeting. After the retarget was made, we had 5 !votes to retarget, 2 to delete, and then a question that suggested support of G14'ing the DAB without commenting on the redirects. Of the retarget !votes, 3 appeared dependent on the existence of the target (and 1 !vote is confirmed as such).
The DAB was then deleted, putting us back to the no consensus for deletion or keeping as redirects to mathematics. But the redirects don't point there anymore, they now point to nothing, so would need to be retargeted again to reach the same no-consensus outcome. My opinion is that the CAMEL redirect especially was a useless redirect at the time it was created and remains useless now, with the added disutility of being in a format no reader is ever going to use, and apparently doesn't even have any external links married to it that would break, so why would we intentionally recreate the same pointless situation when we could instead just wash our hands of it and leave it deleted? JoelleJay (talk) 20:27, 25 July 2023 (UTC)